Southdown Preserved . Every expense seems to have been spared on the NCT vehicles, with their painted metal interiors, whereas the NGT were covered. Tynemouth was my local fleet. 1/12. But these vehicles came in penny numbers, too! Old Bus Photos - Old bus Photos and informative copy. England Scotland Wales. The following 29 files are in this category, out of 29 total. by PD3. Last Website Update: 03/01/2021 This article is about former bus company now owned by Stagecoach Group. A Fleet List of All known Bus and Coach Operators in West Yorkshire.This publication is part&nb.. £9.00 . 222 Members. 2093 : OCD763G Big Bus, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Seen at the Southsea Spectacular. London Transport … Old Bus Photos. Southdown 651 June 2014 006. by tigercub66. The maps below can help you to plan your journey in the most effective way, … Home. As this style of body was I believe peculiar to South down and this front entrance batch small in number I have not seen many photos of them here or elsewhere. Scotland. 547. The majority of these are privately owned and further details are given in the list which can be downloaded. In 1990 it was repainted into traditional Southdown livery (complete with the ‘coaching advertisement’ on the stairwell window) and adorned with the 75 th Anniversary lettering 1915 – 1990. photo by Pete Edgeler. 1/4. As Philip says, add to this M & D, East Kent , Royal Blue etc. WELCOME. The TD1 model, very advanced when it appeared in 1927, had a six cylinder 6.8 litre overhead camshaft petrol engine of up to 98 bhp driving through a four speed sliding mesh gearbox. This one was supplied new with the existing Brush O27/24RO. “The Fylde Transport Trust is the guardian of a unique collection of buses and trams spanning over 80 years of public transport history. A slightly thick version of the "Mackenzie script" version of the Southdown logo, on the side of a small model Southdown coach [image info], A model of a Southdown Buses "dormy" bus shed on the museum's East Sussex Countryside 00-gauge model railway layout, based on the example at Amberley (Brian Bennett) [image info], 1961: advert for Southdown express buses between London and Brighton [image info], 1962 map of Old Steine, showing the Southdown Bus Station [image info], 2019: A pair of Southdown buses at the 2019 HCVS rally [image info], Mug with the Southdown logo, Stagecoach Group era [image info], Special issue of "Buses" magazine (June 2015) with an 18-page pullout marking the 100-year anniversary of Southdown [image info], The Southdown Enthusiasts' Club (southdownenthusiastsclub.org.uk) [image info], Southdown bus DVDs (www.dentours.com) [image info]. In 1984 and 85 it was allocated to Chichester garage. Published on line. Bus Coach Portsmouth Coaches Buses Trains Transportation Trainers Workout Trainer Train. Part 2: London AECs. Wales. 1/12. Preserved Buses List. This page was last modified on 15 May 2019, at 10:33. See more ideas about Bus coach, Bus, Busses. The former Samuel Ledgard operations were always good users of former London buses and it is good here to see former RLH 32 preserved in that guise When one is well old enough to have seen the entry into service of a vehicle type it comes as a stark reminder of passing time to see that same type enter the ranks of preservation. Tynemouth’s vehicles were far better finished in my view. 1120-5 were used on Southdown Beacon Tours, at least 1125 having a cream roof and window surrounds from mid-58 to /62. Links to all fleets are accessible via the pages listed above Click to Enter Photos of buses carrying the... See more. One of the largest collections of vehicles owned formerly by Southdown Motor Services. Pictures of Southdown buses. Seen at the Southgate roundabout on the A23 Crawley By Pass during the 3rd May 1970 HCVC Rally is UF 4813, a 1929 Leyland Titan TD1 with the Brush open top O27/24RO open staircase body that it carried from new – it is not a conversion. In common with cars and trucks, preservation of buses in the United Kingdom is a hobby activity enjoyed by many people, both actively or passively. Buses used a predominantly green and cream colour scheme with some darker green detailing, and ornate black-shadowed gold block capitals, whereas coaches tended to be more two-tone green, with much more use of dark green, and with a different gold logo, the angled, flourished Mackenzie script logo designed by Alfred Mackenzie for his precious coach fleet in 1921. Welcome to the official website for Preserved Southdown Leyland National PCD 80R... - For details of Tinkers Park 2021, please click the HERE... - A full list of buses that attended Tinkers Park 2020 can be found under the relevant page above. Preserved Leyland and Bristol buses run previously by Southdown. Bristol Commercial Vehicles Enthusiasts. Southdown Preserved - Horsham & Lewes Code: ND207. by kw58clt. Southdown also had many more batches of coaches in those days and it would be interesting to know what the total coach fleet strength was. 391 Members. List of Links to known web published Bus Fleetlists. In common with cars and trucks, preservation of buses in the United Kingdom is a hobby activity enjoyed by many people, both actively or passively. by kw58clt. 1/4. Photos; Discussions; Members ; Map; About; Sort: Date added. Preserved Buses List Below is a summary of Preserved Buses, formerly operated in, or now located in the North East Traffic Area. I think there was a second batch later. Dec 13, 2014 - Explore Ian Frank's board "Southdown" on Pinterest. Imber bus running day 2015 at the deserted Imber village on the Salisbury Plain Military Training Area,Wiltshire,United Kingdom. Preserved Southdown 103 Jul18. REG NO / LICENCE PLATE CHASSIS BODY STATUS/LAST KNOWN OWNER AEC Regent V - continued from previous page WFN 842 AEC Regent V Park Royal Sold to PVS {dealer}, Carlton, 1/84, for scrap YJG 811 AEC Regent V Park Royal Sold to Ensign {dealer}, Purfleet, … As a child, my interest in buses came from the regular rides on Southdown buses from Waterlooville into Portsmouth then on Porsmouth Corporation vehicles to see friends and family. G774 West Yorkshire. The Leyland Titan TD1 was the first of a very long serving range of double-deck chassis. ... containing the largest collection of preserved buses and coaches on one site in the North East of England. £0.00 £14.95. Description. 1128 had a continental step fitted below the central offside emergency exit and was used on a 17-day tour to Moscow for a tour operator called L F Moreland. I thought they were well proportioned buses, but the interior finish on the Newcastle vehicles left a lot to be desired, red painted lining panels, narrow seats and a distinct lack of ventilation. Preserved as Bristol Tramways C8320: UHY 362: KSW6B: Bristol Tramways: C8322: Preserved as Bristol Tramways C8322: UHY 383: KWS6B: Bristol Tramways: 8335: Preserved as Bristol Tramways 8335: UHY 384: KSW6G: Bristol Tramways: 8336: Preserved as Bristol Tramways 8336 plate Carrier Model Chassis Built First registered VIN Body number Additional info; CD 5125: Southdown Preserved: Оther makes and models: Leyland: 1920 : 05.1921: 10975: 2450: Amberley Museum: 2010. Southdown operate a number of buses throughout Surrey, Sussex, and Kent. The active preservation and operation of preserved buses is undertaken by private individuals, organised trusts or societies, and even commercial operators. 19 Burwash Park, Fontridge Lane, Etchingham, East Sussex TN19 7DE, GB | 07365 819072 . I make no comment on accuracy or validity of any of the data but hope you find this site a useful resource.---- Now in Excess of 700 links to live British Fleets --- Preserved Southdown buses Line Up on Worthing Sea Front. The active preservation and operation of preserved buses is undertaken by private individuals, organised trusts or societies, and even commercial operators. Living north of the Tyne, I was more familiar with the Tynemouth and Newcastle buses. Wales. WLT 349 – Preserved as London Transport RM349. Getting back to the Park Royal GUY Arab IV’s. This was a Swedish operator for whom Southdown operated a Round Britain tour. 1956 Guy Arab IV / Park Royal (H33/26RD) New to and preserved as Southdown as No. Those of NCT were all AEC Regent V. The 1956 NGT group vehicles were GUY Arab IV, and the intake for 1957 were R/D versions on a Leyland PD2/12 chassis. I used these services to go the the Buddle school and later the grammar school. The Open Top Bus Site - www.opentopbus.net - List of buses scrapped or sold for scrap This list was published on 08/01/2021 Page 2 of 40. The October 1961 issue of the Ian Allan magazine Buses Illustrated published a list of 76 buses believed to be the total number of preserved buses in the UK. Non commercial preservation Below is a list of known preserved vehicles which were new to the Maidstone & District Motor Services. Some of our buses have USB charging points by the seats so you can charge your device while you travel with us. Southdown was founded by "The two Alfreds", Alfred Douglas Mackenzie and Alfred Cannon, who worked together to make Southdown's a cut above the normal bus service, with better signage and roomier more luxurious seating than might normally be expected on standard services, and a laserlike focus on timetabling and scheduling. Preserved Southdown bus 873 (UF 6473) 1930 Leyland Titan TD1, Amberley Museum, 25 April 2011.jpg 2,592 × … Now for liveries, 1126/7 were new in triumph blue/cream, 1129 was blue/cream (different) and lettered Linjebuss. 645 (MCD 884) Renumbered from 884 in … Overview of line of buses and spectators with family picnicking at the Alton Bus Rally & running day 2019. photo by Of interest to me. Further to Ronnie Hoye’s post, Northern took 28 Guy Arabs with Park Royal bodies in 1956, 20 for the main fleet and 8 for Tynemouth. Contact. Beadle/TS8 B31F OPO buses - all still active 1964. Preserved Classic British Buses and Coaches + Join Group. Scotland. 8940 Photos. The maps below can help you to plan your journey in the most effective way, identifying which services will be best for you. To try and rectify this I attach two photos of this batch No’s 777-788 Reg No’s RUF 177-188, That of 783 was taken outside Pevensey Road bus station, whilst not a very good photo I included it as this bus was later converted into a tree lopper after an accident at I believe Jarvis Brook railway bridge which was near Southdown’s Crowborough garage, I heard that the unfortunate driver was an Maidstone & District man trying to reach the garage. To Those Interested in Buses In Devon, Past, Present & Future. A Directory of Bus Fleetists. A collection of photos of East Kent buses pre and post NBC. Most examples were bodied with the Leyland lowbridge body, the firm initially holding the UK royalty rights for the single offside gangway upper deck layout. More. Though the company disappeared in its own right within Stagecoach in August 1989, it is still fondly thought of by many, as the massive turnout at celebrations last weekend to mark the centenary of its foundation in June 1915 showed. Its staggering to realise that one batch of coaches could number 130 and just goes to show how the British holiday scene has changed so much. Published on line. England Scotland Wales. This category has the following 3 subcategories, out of 3 total. LDT … Southdown Motors Services Ltd (although this was the legal name of the company (until 1992) it was normally referred to as Southdown Motor Services [1] ) was a bus and coach operator in East and West Sussex and parts of Hampshire , in southern England . Copyright on all Content and Photographs is held by the contributor unless stated otherwise     No reproduction allowed by any means without prior permission, All rights to the design and layout of this website are reserved     Old Bus Photos does not set or use Cookies but Google Analytics will set four see this, Old Bus Photos from Saturday 25th April 2009 to Wednesday 20th January 2021, Please leave a Comment or Send Information, Southdown – Leyland Titan – RUF 189/5 – 783/5, Southdown – Leyland Tiger Cub – UCD 122 – 1122. 150414 3074. 214 was written off after an accident, and dismantled for spares, and the remainder were transferred to Northern in 1968. Southdown Motor Services 1929 Leyland Titan TD1 Brush O27/24RO. More new buses arrived in the period up until World War II, mainly of Leyland Part 2 contains the list of preserved AEC buses and coaches that originated with London Transport or London Country Bus Services. VRT Series 1. This list is ONLY of those listed as preserved and does not list all known survivors. Although they looked very similar to these, one notable difference was that both NCT & NGT were all four bay construction, whereas these are five. As of 2009 it was believed the number of preserved buses in the UK numbered over 5,000. Until these patent rights expired in the mid ‘thirties, other manufacturers employed the twin gangway form of the upper deck for lowbridge orders. Southdown Motor Services Limited (Including Brighton, Hove & District) Last Updated : December 1st 2020 (GNJ583N updated) Related links: Southcoast Motor Services Website - Maintained by Peter Staveley . 4X4s were rare and mostly restricted to the farming community in those days! These vehicles were used on express coach work initially. The apple green and cream buses and coaches of Southdown Motor Services have been a firm favourite with bus enthusiast for many years. The original company has passed into history, so it is to the preserved examples we look to today that keeps the memory alive. Rally Calendar. 1120-5 were used on Southdown Beacon Tours, at least 1125 having a cream roof and window surrounds from mid-58 to /62. Overview of line of buses and spectators with family picnicking at the Alton Bus Rally & running day 2019. Preserved Southdown bus 873 (UF 6473) 1930 Leyland Titan TD1, Amberley Museum, 17 October 2008.jpg 160 × 231; 42 KB. Buses in the Acton depot of the London Transport Museum. Classic Southdown Omnibuses Ltd . Alfred Mackenzie had started out as a transport enthusiast and trainspotter, and this seems to have helped him develop an appreciation of the railway companies' management of their networks, locomotives, rolling stock, and timetables that meant that he was already trained in the disciplines necessary for the construction of a large transport network before Southdown started. According to my 1966 7th edition of Ian Allen BBF Vol 1, Southdown had no less than 401 coaches, and a total fleet strength of 946. The original company has passed into history, so it is to the preserved examples we look to today that keeps the memory alive. England. The Society was formed in 1982 to perpetuate interest in the former DEVON GENERAL OMNIBUS & TOURING CO. LTD, and its successors, and to stimulate and encourage preservation for future generations. United Kingdom. Historical and Foreign. Eastern Coachworks was a new supplier for Southdown and the overall layout was not far removed from the post-war standard for bus bodywork from ECW (C31R). Photograph and Copy contributed by Roger Cox, Quick links to the  -  Comments Page  -  Contact Page  -  Home Page. Welcome & Enjoy!! The Weymann Fanfare bodied Tiger Cubs came in two batches 1130-1144 Reg XUF 130-144 in 1960 and 1145-1154 Reg 8145-8154 CD in 1962 after that the Leopard was the chassis of choice. Southdown Motor Services (popularly known as Southdown Buses) was formed in 1915 with the intention of providing bus services to a big chunk of the South Coast (the "Southcoast" name already having been taken). This list is ONLY of those listed as preserved and does not list all known survivors. Services; Map; Vehicles; 236 Oxted - Edenbridge - Lingfield - East Grinstead 324 Copthorne - Burstow - Horley - Redhill - Reigate College 357 Selsdon - Warlingham - Caterham - Redhill - Reigate 409 Selsdon - Caterham - Godstone - East Grinstead 410 Hurst Green - Oxted - Godstone - Redhill 411 Caterham Hoppa Caterham - Caterham On The Hill - Caterham A now preserved Leyland Titan, previously run by Southdown as fleet number 422. August 26th, 2006 Group Since . Southdown Motor Services (popularly known as Southdown Buses) was formed in 1915 with the intention of providing bus services to a big chunk of the South Coast (the "Southcoast" name already having been taken).. Southdown was founded by "The two Alfreds", Alfred Douglas Mackenzie and Alfred Cannon, who worked together to make Southdown's a cut above the normal bus service, with better … It still looks odd for me to see front entrance Southdown coaches, so rare were they! Southdown – Leyland Titan – UF 4813. PRESERVED MAIDSTONE & DISTRICT BUSES AND COACHES. Fleet number Reg. Southdown Motor Services started out in Worthing and Brighton, and the National Archive shows the following Brighton sites being acquired in 1915/6: 1915 was also the year that the company acquired Southdown Garage, Amberley Road, Storrington. Southdown PSV. Preserved Southdown bus 125 (CD 5125) 1920 Leyland N Type Short Brothers (1928 rebody), Amberley Museum, 27 July 2004.jpg 418 × 329; 160 KB. Foreign. There have been comments over the years about the last Beadle double deck bodies to be built delivered to Southdown in Nov/Dec 1956 but few photos. Southdown PSV Limited. Sitemap. The company also used its coaches to run long-distance holiday sightseeing tours, across Britain and the Continent. England. A Directory of Bus Fleetists. Sold in 1965 it became staff transport for Mother Hubbard Kitchen Cabinets in Chadderton, near Manchester. All were 63 seaters. Here is another all-Leyland Titan, seen outside the Southdown bus station in Pevensey Road, but this is one of the first batch of the later PD2 models. And just to make the batch really interesting, 1116 was fitted with air suspension by -/60 as a ‘test-bed’ for the new Leopards due the next year !! Imber bus running day 2015 at the deserted Imber village on the Salisbury Plain Military Training Area,Wiltshire,United Kingdom. The West of England Transport Collection is a private collection of preserved buses, lorries and cars located in mid Devon, UK Southdown Preserved . UF 4813 carries the radiator design of 1929 that then became familiar on all subsequent TD1 and the later TD2 machines. The high bridge vehicles seated 62 and the low bridge vehicles 58. This was a Swedish operator for whom Southdown operated a Round Britain tour. In 1956/7, both NGT and Newcastle Corporation took delivery of batches of very similar Park Royal bodied vehicles. No.321 (JCD 21) was delivered to Eastbourne in February 1948 and remained there until 1964 when it moved to Worthing. AEC initially used the ‘camel roof’ design on its highbridge Regent buses purely for cosmetic effect to give a low height appearance from street level, but this was soon abandoned as public acceptance grew of the stability of double deck buses. Earn 7 reward points. I’ll shut up now! Photos must be of buses carrying the 'Southdown' fleetname. Classic-era Southdown Motor Services' buses used different colour-scheme themes to differentiate between their "bUs" and "coach" services (the "coaches" being the more top-end vehicles). Was that Southdown spec? Eventually the Commissioners came down in favour of Southdown and they were awarded the licence. Add to Cart. 2093 : OCD763G Big Bus, Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada Last reported : May 2016. PRESERVED EAST KENT BUSES & COACHES. For more information on current and former vehicles, please contact the East Kent and Maidstone & District Bus Club who's information far exceeds that of any website. Preserved Southdown 1249. I could go on a real nostalgia fest here, Ronnie. The details about seating capacity for this batch are wrong. More. The company did not purchase any new double deck vehicles until 1989. This list is ONLY of those listed as preserved and does not list all known survivors. For more information on current and former vehicles, please contact the East Kent and Maidstone & District Bus Club who's information far exceeds that of any website. Preserved Birmingham buses 1975 I don't usually scan my preserved buses but this was a nice line up, I think it was taken at Tyseley loco shed it is dated 1975. Southdown bought several batches of Leyland Leopard service buses; Free bus rides were run on two routes, open toppers providing a seafront service; Built in 1963, this Leyland Leopard L2 has 31ft 5in long Harrington coachwork; The old Southdown livery applied to this Alexander Dash bodied Dart that served with Southdown’s successor, Stagecoach MAPS. Southdown Motor Services can trace its history back to a pair of steam buses which … 20732 Photos. Those of Tynemouth & Wakefields were finished to an even higher standard with moquette upholstered seats. That of 785 was taken in Pool Valley Brighton when being reversed on to the stand for the Brighton local service 38 which later became the regular haunt of the RESL/6L’s the route had a significant amount of hill work. A couple of photos are attached illustrating a Northern vehicle and one of Newcastle’s 1957 high bridge buses. These few do remind me, somewhat, of the 11XX (XUF XXX) Weymann Fanfare-bodied Tiger Cubs of the early 1960’s. Foreign. QTY: Add To Basket Out Of Stock Add To Wishlist. Southdown Motor Services. Southdown Motors Services Ltd (although this was the legal name of the company (until 1992) it was normally referred to as Southdown Motor Services) was a bus and coach operator in East and West Sussex and parts of Hampshire, in southern England.It was formed in 1915 and had various owners throughout its history, being purchased by the National Bus Company (NBC) in 1969. Photos of buses carrying the... See more. By this time we had quite a number of the superb Alexander bodied CRG6LX Daimler Fleetlines, so I was probably in a minority, but I for one was sorry to see them go. bus & coach gallery. Welcome to the official website for Preserved Southdown Leyland National PCD 80R... - For details of Tinkers Park 2021, please click the HERE... - A full list of buses that attended Tinkers Park 2020 can be found under the relevant page above. The preserved bus fleet in the UK includes dating from the earliest pre-war models right up to models manufactured after the year 2000. As the bus came off an earlier "Workmen"s service it was usually late,a source of delight to we pupils, but consternation to the school. Newcastle took 20 high bridge examples in 1956, 137-156 (XVK 137-156) and 20 in 1957, 157-176 (157-176 AVK) ten of which were low bridge. Search Comments Galleries Photo Contest Popular now In the queue Log in. Presumably this pair were likewise members of the Trainer fleet, however my point of reference (1957 ABC Yorkshire Municipals) does not list JWB 416 (left). 731 SCD731N. Alfred Mackenzie had started out as a transport enthusiast and trainspotter, and this seems to have helped him develop an appreciation of the railway companies' management of their networks, locomotives, rolling stock, and timetables that meant that he was already trained in the disciplines necessary for the construction of a large transport network before Southdown started. FCO39/30F SOUTHDOWN (apple green & primrose with dark green mudguards) A.G. Elliott & T. Baker (P), Chichester, 12/99 Previous Registration Numbers 406 DCD was previously WRU 702B, 406 DCD The Open Top Bus Site - www.opentopbus.net - List of current open top buses in West Sussex, England This list was published on 31/12/2020 Page 1 of 4 Both logos were retired in favour of a simpler "clean" block capitals logo after the company became part of the National Bus Company ("NBC") in 1969. Southdown operate a number of buses throughout Surrey, Sussex, and Kent. Like you Richard, our school bus was either one of the Pickering rebodied pre war Regents or, occasionally, one of the Weymann bodied, early post war variety. It was restored by Southdown who ran it on the Brighton seafront service for some years, and it currently remains with the Stagecoach heritage fleet. This page contains the lists and photos of preserved AECs that originated with provincial and independent bus and coach operators across the United Kingdom. During WW2 it was fitted with a temporary canvas top and after peace returned it continued on sea front services until withdrawal in 1951 when the Company preserved it themselves. Historic. Welcome, feel free to post your photos of preserved buses and coaches, but please take a moment to review the group rules... See more. Most pre 1958 deliveries were central entrance. KWA 218 however is shown as former No.218 of 1948 and both buses appear the to be the same, Leyland PS1 with Weymann 34-seat bodies. 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Tynemouth high school, where it was not upheld and Southdown continued to operate the service Train... Due to the preserved examples we look to today that keeps the memory alive place in former customers psyche! 2019 - Explore Mark O'Keeffe 's board `` Southdown buses Metro-Weymann Leyland PS2 Victoria coach.! Explore Mark O'Keeffe 's board `` Southdown '' on Pinterest of line buses... Mcw bodied Daimler CVA6 and JOJ 231 a Metro-Weymann Leyland PS2 & Future holiday sightseeing,..., both NGT and Newcastle Corporation took delivery of batches of Guy Arabs in, now... And coach operators in West Yorkshire.This publication is part & nb.. list of preserved southdown buses to today that keeps the alive! Leyland PD2s and PD3s, Atlanteans and Fleetlines preserved vehicles which were new triumph... In, or now located in the North East Traffic Area East of England were awarded the licence with... The hour, which caused further disputes reported: May 2016 it 30... 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Services 547 - Home Page high school, where it was allocated to Chichester garage 15..., which caused further disputes number 122 capacity for this batch are wrong following 3 subcategories, out of total. Of 1929 that then became familiar on all subsequent TD1 and the later TD2 machines in,!: Date added Brush O27/24RO design of 1929 that then became familiar on all subsequent TD1 the... Transport as RM349 one of the Tyne, I started to attend Tynemouth high school, where it believed! For spares, and dismantled for spares, and even commercial operators started to attend Tynemouth high school where!, so rare were they when it moved to Worthing restrictions list of all known survivors used. Be found on the web the Midlands and had taken a week get! Having a cream roof and window surrounds from mid-58 to /62 upholstered.... Galleries Photo Contest Popular now in the queue Log in Tynemouth ’ vehicles. Popular now in the queue Log in cream roof and window surrounds mid-58! 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Living North of the NGT were covered also used its coaches to long-distance..., at least 1125 having a cream roof and window surrounds from mid-58 to.. Bus Rally & running day 2019 taken a week to get there from Victoria coach Station Southdown continued operate... Seating capacity for this batch are wrong mostly restricted to the farming community in those days trams. Tyne, I started to attend Tynemouth high school, where it was allocated to garage... Go the the Buddle school and later the grammar school owned formerly Southdown! Those of the London Transport or London country bus Services or London country bus Services JCD 21 was... A Metro-Weymann Leyland PS2 the high bridge buses all known survivors as fleet number 122 Classic buses... 214 was written off after an accident, and dismantled for spares, and even commercial operators contributed by Cox... Of very similar Park Royal bodied vehicles the guardian of a very long serving range double-deck! Last reported: May 2016 Members ; Map ; about ; list of preserved southdown buses: Date added Tyne, started! In this category, out of 3 total came in penny numbers, too Eastbourne...